Scorpio 1993 V6 12v efi Lean condition

[Kaptajnen]

Hi All
I could really use some help with my car!
Car had just finished a very nice 500km run, and shortly after I felt a "thump" and were losing power; pulled over and the car were idling and revving fine, but shortly after taking off, the car were loosing power again.
When the car arrived home with the help from road assistance it were driving fine and were parked in the garage; when I started error seeking I reckon the car weren't running as It should, when cold the throttle isn't as sharp as usual and sounds like its about to stall, this is only when throttle is pressed lightly, it revs fine if it gets a good pull, the engine reacts very nice to the small pulls when hot.
I have used the the Gunson FCR and have 1 persistent error; 041 system running lean, no switching.
I have only had 2 small runs afterwards and the power loss problem haven't showed its ugly face.

I believe I have tried all what I would call basics incl. leak finding; but as I would like to take it from the top again I choose not to specify what I have tried to not bias any suggestions on what to do next.

Question:
How many Hego's is it supposed to have?
I have 1 at the right bank, just after the exhaust manifold, some says it should have 2, but I can't seem to find it, unless it have been removed?

What Fuel pressure is it supposed to have; the best I can find is 2,5 bar with vacuum and 3 bar without, I actually do believe the pressure were a little on the low side and had a bit of pressure loss when revving yesterday, were I presume the pressure should be more stable; data on this is incredible hard to find; I also have my doubts on the gauge as it afterwards were acting up strange.

If interested, the car can be seen on below link
https://www.bilgalleri.dk/galleri/37780 ... o_2_9i_glx

All suggestions are received with great thanks.

[davew]

Yes, It sounds very much like a fuel supply (pressure) problem; When did you last change the filter ?
3 bar is OK (if your gauge is reading properly; Borrow another gauge to be sure (?)

Vacuum / Inlet gaskets / etc leaks can show up as lean fuelling too of course

One Hego, yes !

Photos look good: Welcome to the club !

[Kaptajnen]

Hi Dave

Thanks A lot for your fast answer.
Filter is exchanged in regards to this problem, old one was about 7 years old with around 12500 miles running - for what i can find through the invoices.

You write 3 bars pressure, but i assume its without the vacuum hose attached, so what i should be looking at is a pressure on 2,5 bars, correct?
What i saw yesterday were around 2,2 bars and dropping when revving, were i would like to see it quite stable and/or increasing when revving.
I have earliere tested to 2,5 bars pressure idling, but it was poorly timed so i dont reckon i was being thoroughly enough to be sure of the result, 2. try yesterday with earliere mentioned result was also poorly planed and ran out of time.
I will try during the weekend to find a good couple of hours to patch up the equipment and verify the pressure in the rail.

I saw a quite new thread in regards to FPRs; is gettings these from the states really the best/only option?
Its quite quick to exchange and see if the problem lies in the FPR.

[davew]

Ok as you clearly know the FPR uses the vacuum to operate (ie. control the pressure); If the FPR fails it often means the diaphragm inside is ruptured.....
and this could explain the strange gauge readings you are seeing - as fuel also then gets sucked down the vac. pipe.....

The best/quickest way to check this is to add a transparent pipe to the vac. pipe to the FPR.... and you will see the fuel (if present).

Yes, quite a few components can be sourced in the U.S. (as they were also fitted to their Merkur and Taurus cars) but many others can be
sourced in Germany too if not available for instance in the UK (or only at crazy prices...)

[Kaptajnen]

Hi All

A small update.
I didn't find the time to test car, but I did get to check out the gauge.
The small pin-valve that closes when the 2 hoses is connected was badly adjusted and ended up closing for the fuel again; it was extremely delicate to adjust so I decided to unscrew it for free flow through the hose.
I will try this week to have the car tested.

I can,t seem to find any FPR in the EU, other than the Powerboost from Burton.
Any suggestions?

Thanks

[davew]

Try German dealers with Ford code 6154156


But as above maybe the easiest way to get a FPR is as above, eg. eBay.com item number:171735791231 ($50, inc.)

[Kaptajnen]

Hi All

I fooled around with the car today, and got following numbers:
Primed and ready to go, gauge shows 2,8b
Idling 2,3b
Around 2000 rpm, dead steady 2,2b
Without vacuum, dead steady 3b
I don't see any drippage from the FPR, but it do smell of fuel; this could be from earlier when I thought I had another FPR to try, but it had the wrong fuel return connection, it resulted in some fuel spillage when disconnected.
So, how do I interpret above figures? good? bad?

Another change of events is, that i got an advise from A ford dealer to wire up the 2 earths on the Hego, as it regulates poorly this should fix it, and my error code 41 is gone, I havn't got it confirmed yet that the car is not running lean, but i dont have the code - only clean 11s on both KOEO and KOER.
Car still do have some cold issues with the throttle which disappears when hot.

Do you mean 1654156?
The one you're linking to has the wrong fuel return, and is stated as pr17, shouldn't it be pr44?
Below looks right, although vacuum connection would turn the wrong way when mounted, but hose should be long enough
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMP-PR44-Fue ... l+pr4.TRS0

[Kaptajnen]

What I forgot to mention was, that I already have exchanged the Hego.
As mentioned in my first post, the only recurring error was 041 which I found to be "system lean", to be sure I exchanged to a new Hego and also concluded that the heater circuit was not working in the old one; still had the 041 with the new Hego.
What I did now with the advice to solder the 2 earths together was to use the old one as it apparently was working but without the heater, which I assume have no effect as the weather is as hot as it is, and wanted to test if the 041 was gone before cutting up a brand new Hego.
The error went away in the system, so to be sure i just mounted the new unaltered Hego, and what i was expecting was it to show 041; but it didn't.
I tried to provoke it by not plugging it in, but its not being monitored during KOEO as it did not show any errors; i did get 041 on KOER with it unplugged, which leads me to think if i have the right error code view, 041 in what i believe is an American version, appears to be "Injectors out of balance on 5.0L SEFI; EGO sensor voltage low (except 5.0L SEFI)";so which code sheet should i use?
As of now I don't have the 041 in the KAM which should be "EGO sensor signal out of range (except 5.0L SEFI); fuel pressure out of range - 5.0L SEFI" according to the American version.
I did test drive the new Hego, and got the 041, why I kept searching and got the earth soldering advice which first appeared to work; as of now I havn't driven the car and checked if the error reappears with either setups.
Im about to totally loose it

[davew]

Ok, quick answer based on your additional information is that the HEGO/ circuit may indeed be faulty; For this the FCR code should be 41 (not 141/lean as I had assumed you meant).

The HEGO heater needs to work (as heats it up to 100s/C), If you disconnect it a fault code will not appear immediately anyway....

Fuel Pressure as measured is OK of course, probably not the FPR at all !!

[Kaptajnen]

Hi Dave

Thanks A lot for your help, much appreciated!!!
Im using below error code view.
http://www.thorssell.net/hbook/2digit.html
were 041 is:
41 (R) System lean
(M) System was lean for 15 seconds or more (no HO2S switching)

I've had the code in the memory, until now were its suddenly gone, I have deleted the codes several times and it have returned each time.
I took the car for a small town spin today, with the brand new unaltered Hego and read out codes again 011,010,011 - everything is fine, oddly enough, so I'm probably going to take it to a shop to have the exhaust gas checked out, to confirm car is running as it should, car have been garaged since "the incident" maybe everything is solved and I just need to run it again.

141? I dont suppose the car supports 3 digits?

[davew]

Sounds promising ... but still does not quite explain what that original 'thump' was !.....

If the HEGO is bad the engine will still run, but probably stay Open Loop, whilst using other sensors (eg. RPM, Flow) to 'decide' (ie. estimate) the fuelling...
and it is possible that there was some brief overfuelling and thus a 'backfire'..(?)..

With the new HEGO the O11 etc Fault Codes sound good - and so should be Emissions be now too. If the 041 re-appears check the HEGO wiring/contacts.

Yes, sorry, yours is 2-Digit - even though it is a '93 as it is the 12v....

[Kaptajnen]

The symptoms as described were, as I understand, spot on A bad fuel filter, all though only 12500 miles covered it was indeed 7 years old, so perhaps old crystalized fuel was the culprit.
I will have the emission' tested and try running again.
Is it a good/bad idea to throw fuel cleaner in the tank?

I was unsure of the PCV function as it kept suction, were I suppose it should at some point stop entirely with A finger blocking the plate, so A new one should arrive tomorrow.

Thanks A lot!

[davew]

Yes, a lot of various 'crud' can build up on the filter over 7 years; Cheap/easy to replace it though ! Such "Fuel Additives" are generally just a waste of money though.

Yes an 'open' PCV will affect vacuum/fuelling/emissions.

[Kaptajnen]

I did check the oil filler cap and cleaned it out, nothing physical goo, just brown water
I almost bought one of the unbranded caps of ebay, but decided the original was still very good.

[Kaptajnen]

Hi All

So the Scorpio kicked me in the gonads today.
I have been driving it the last 2 days, and when driving home from work today, i felt a small cutout just after taking off; later on it made one of the infamous "thumps" with a quite bad smell afterwards, this was during an mild acceleration overtake of a tractor, i drove it carefully home and read out the codes - the 041 lean condition is back!

Im totally back to scratch.

I have been driving about 188 miles since the last issues and refueled yesterday = 42 liters, (just below the half tank mark) revealing the car had done about 4,5 mile pr. liter fuel - a bit on the low side.
The last time i filled it with shell v-power octane 100, yesterday - just plain 95.
Can the fuel be the issue - or filling the tank itself?
I opened the fuel tank lid just after parking and heard gargle noise from the tank - can it be a vacuum problem from the tank?

2 things i have observed is:
- I do believe I'm hearing som small puffs from the exhaust, perhaps som backfire of a sort - i cant remember if i have mentioned this earlier?
- When running the car in gear without touching the speeder, it feels a bit lumpy; how is the fuel cut off working and could it be an issue?

I really need help here, and every suggestion is highly appreciated!

Thanks a lot!!
Have a nice day.

//Jørgen

[davew]

Is the 41 Fault Code present again ?

If so the fact that this problem 'comes and goes' does point back -again- to an electrical issue (hego wiring/voltage); If the ECU thinks the mixture on that bank is lean it will tend to 'compensate' too and thus over-fuel (producing the smell and 'lumpy' running of course)

[Kaptajnen]

Hi Dave
Thanks for your answer!

Yes, the 041 is back i KAM.
What can I do to exclude the wiring/hego?

I suspect the code is valid, and the car indeed is running lean, but i just can't find out why.
Could it be an ECT error?
I changed the ECT last year because it seemed it wasn't fueled right when running cold; it appeared to be solved with the new ECT, but it came back after a while, so i changed back to the old ECT, and actually didn't come around it again.

Thanks

[Kaptajnen]

Does this cover all my wiring needs?
http://granada-and-scorpio.com/ocart/in ... duct_id=57

[davew]

Ok, but explain just what you mean by a 'bad smell'.... do you mean fuel (or cats ) ?

If your car really is underfuelling then that would point more at the injector wiring (which hardens cracks with age)

(Yours is a '93.... some parts of the '94 Wiring Diagrams would cover it but the earlier Diagrams would be better !)

[Kaptajnen]

Hi Dave

I would say fuel, but in a bad way, an iron smell.

I have found an extra wiring harness from the injectors in a box with parts that came with car, if it were for spares or the original, i dont know.
How about an fault in the injectors them self?

I will try with the '92

thanks a lot!